Is it acceptable for a group of circa 15 cyclists to cycle single file without leaving any gaps?

Applicable in a city or town with reasonable public transport, but many towns have poor bus services and public transport links which lead to an increased dependency on cars. Local services here have been cut drastically, add to that the trains service also is abysmal. I cycle a lot of my journeys and do use the train (when it is running) for my commute, but the reality is we still need a car to get around in many cases.

Adam Sutton wrote:

Applicable in a city or town with reasonable public transport, but many towns have poor bus services and public transport links which lead to an increased dependency on cars. Local services here have been cut drastically, add to that the trains service also is abysmal. I cycle a lot of my journeys and do use the train (when it is running) for my commute, but the reality is we still need a car to get around in many cases.

That's one of the problems with designing towns around the motor car - it then becomes necessary as it crowds out all the other options. Even public transport becomes undesirable as virtually everyone living in such places will need to own a car anyway and thus the problem continues.

hawkinspeter wrote:

That's one of the problems with designing towns around the motor car - it then becomes necessary as it crowds out all the other options. Even public transport becomes undesirable as virtually everyone living in such places will need to own a car anyway and thus the problem continues.

One of the stipulations of the first major housing development/expansion here was the inlcusion of a dedicated busway linking the development to the two major towns to the east/west. Additional developments have by and large been linked into this, with Amazon building a distribution depot in the area this also was linked and has added the benifit of expaning the service to run 24/7.

The issue isn't "designing towns around the motor car" The issue is that MANY towns and villages in rural, or even as here, urban areas that were designed before the motor car do not have access to public transport in this way and never really have. Towns and villages like this close by were not integated into the new busway and services have actually reduced. Where my parents live in terms of its access has not changed in decades or really even a century or so, but you cannot get a bus there late. The last bus from their nearst train station is 19:28 (weekday).

These issues, and asinine memes are only black and white when you don't want to look objectively at the bigger picture.

Adam Sutton wrote:

One of the stipulations of the first major housing development/expansion here was the inlcusion of a dedicated busway linking the development to the two major towns to the east/west. Additional developments have by and large been linked into this, with Amazon building a distribution depot in the area this also was linked and has added the benifit of expaning the service to run 24/7.

The issue isn't "designing towns around the motor car" The issue is that MANY towns and villages in rural, or even as here, urban areas that were designed before the motor car do not have access to public transport in this way and never really have. Towns and villages like this close by were not integated into the new busway and services have actually reduced. Where my parents live in terms of its access has not changed in decades or really even a century or so, but you cannot get a bus there late. The last bus from their nearst train station is 19:28 (weekday).

These issues, and asinine memes are only black and white when you don't want to look objectively at the bigger picture.

I think a large part of declining public transport is that it's often run for-profit and it's not seen as economical to run a lot of rural services. It's a catch-22 situation as people learn that the public transport is crap/non-existent and so have to rely on getting a car. Once they've got a car, they're going to use it in preference to public transport and so the services don't see as much demand (and thus profit). The issue with designing housing developments is that they're often too distant from the shops and services that people require and so they can no longer walk a mile to get to their local doctor surgery etc.

Seems we're still building new developments in my part of the world which assume and accommodate "everyone will drive" while all other other options come second, if at all. That includes active travel, public transport, putting places near amenities or even establishing new amenities to go with the housing.

If you couldn't get a bus before, that's one thing. (Although often people would have walked or cycled but that's become much *less* appealing because of now sharing space with large and/or fast vehicles). But we're still building in more of the same issues.

hawkinspeter wrote:

I think a large part of declining public transport is that it's often run for-profit and it's not seen as economical to run a lot of rural services. It's a catch-22 situation as people learn that the public transport is crap/non-existent and so have to rely on getting a car. Once they've got a car, they're going to use it in preference to public transport and so the services don't see as much demand (and thus profit). The issue with designing housing developments is that they're often too distant from the shops and services that people require and so they can no longer walk a mile to get to their local doctor surgery etc.

True.  Bus services which might not be rammed on every journey but which are essential services for people who don't drive, are often supported by council subsidy and in the present climate the subsidy gets cut off so the bus company says, "Sorry, its not economic to run that service".  Look at all the current fuss around the village of Winterbourne north of Bristol, or the routes being cut in south Bristol.

hawkinspeter wrote:

I think a large part of declining public transport is that it's often run for-profit and it's not seen as economical to run a lot of rural services. It's a catch-22 situation as people learn that the public transport is crap/non-existent and so have to rely on getting a car. Once they've got a car, they're going to use it in preference to public transport and so the services don't see as much demand (and thus profit). The issue with designing housing developments is that they're often too distant from the shops and services that people require and so they can no longer walk a mile to get to their local doctor surgery etc.

True as that is, it doesn't alter the fact that transport links are and always have been vastly different in rural and suburban areas compared to London and bigger cities/towns. Not saying this is you, but it has been clear here that many have a London centric view and no appreciation that it is not the same even in towns bordering London.

Adam Sutton wrote:

True as that is, it doesn't alter the fact that transport links are and always have been vastly different in rural and suburban areas compared to London and bigger cities/towns. Not saying this is you, but it has been clear here that many have a London centric view and no appreciation that it is not the same even in towns bordering London.

That's a good point - I was brought up in London and now live in Bristol, so my view is naturally biased towards cities. However, Bristol doesn't have good public transport at all, but interestingly, that gap can be quite successfully filled by e-scooters (e.g. VOI) for a lot of journeys.

For the last year or so i've been living in a village in Oxfordshire recently the bus service has doubled from one an hour to one every half hour,It's amazing the difference this has made to getting about and whether i'd decide to drive or not. For example the next town across is 15 minutes away, It has a really nice little cinema and films start at 7.30 before i'd have  to get the 6.25 bus and hang around for 50 mins and often the film would end just after a bus, so another 40-50 mins hanging around in the dark,Think i did this once froze my nuts off and drove every other time.Now i can get there with only 20 mins hanging around and the cinema gets to sell a pint they otherwise wouldn't.It really made a change, no more  whens the next bus? Sod it i'll  drive, A car is still needed as the bus doesn't go everywhere but my usage has cut down so much that i'm still running on petrol i put in at the beginning of April.

Ever stopped to think WHY public transport is so poor these days? Happy to enlighten you if necc. 

Nah mate after twenty years of using southeastern I really don't need your input.

OnYerBike wrote:

I think they would have been better off cycling two abreast. 15 cyclist two abreast is just as easy to overtake as 8 cyclist single file (which is what simply splitting into two groups would have achieved). 

In terms of general principles, when I'm cycling in a group we do try to show consideration to drivers, including on occassion pulling over to let them past etc. However, this does need to be balanced with our own safety, convenience and enjoyment. Splitting in to smaller groups solely for short sections on busy road is not something we would normally do.

still a big group, 8 rows of cyclists is a pretty long block to pass, whereas 4 rows  and then another 4 rows 200m up the road should be easy to pass for a good driver.

wycombewheeler wrote:

OnYerBike wrote:

I think they would have been better off cycling two abreast. 15 cyclist two abreast is just as easy to overtake as 8 cyclist single file (which is what simply splitting into two groups would have achieved). 

In terms of general principles, when I'm cycling in a group we do try to show consideration to drivers, including on occassion pulling over to let them past etc. However, this does need to be balanced with our own safety, convenience and enjoyment. Splitting in to smaller groups solely for short sections on busy road is not something we would normally do.

still a big group, 8 rows of cyclists is a pretty long block to pass, whereas 4 rows  and then another 4 rows 200m up the road should be easy to pass for a good driver.

Yeah, but you have to find a good driver first.

While walking to the shops the other day I was stunned at the numbers of waiting cars all of which were shoddily and illegally parked up on pavements, cycle paths and roundabouts by my old school. All the more astounding when the school is now 750 pupils against the 1200 when I attended. Back then kicking out time was an inevitable swarm of bodies cycling/walking/bussing and very few chauffeuring. Now you have to negotiate cars rather than bodies. 

Clearly the road is congested with cycle traffic and this can only be alleviated with adding a cycle lane or two, or maybe three or four.

AndyIT wrote:

2 groups would make it easier and safer to pass for all concerned; we have to share the roads, can't see a them and us attitude helping

I explained why I thought that it isn't necessarily better.

And there's no them-and-us, I also said that I am a driver and considered it from that PoV too.

If 'groups' of cars splitting up or pulling over to let you past while cycling then that's great but I've not seen that happen. I get the odd driver who seems me in their mirror and moves across or leaves a gap to give me more space (which is always acknowledged) but that's about it.

"Sharing the road" works ways. Since bikes are far smaller than cars I'm already using a much smaller proportion of it when cycling then when driving.

AndyIT wrote:

I can't see relations between cyclists & car drivers getting any better

This isn't "a thing"

What we do have are selfish people and I don't mean cyclists using the roads lawfully, I mean selfish people who get annoyed when driving if they get held up slightly by a cyclist.

I ride out on the lanes around me and there are a lot of horses about, multiple times I have seen shitty behaviour from cyclists towards horse riders. Worse case was a time I had slowed up seeing some ahead, and two other cyclists just came steaming past me at speed and didn't give a moments consideration to the horses or how they may react.

Adam Sutton wrote:

I ride out on the lanes around me and there are a lot of horses about, multiple times I have seen shitty behaviour from cyclists towards horse riders. Worse case was a time I had slowed up seeing some ahead, and two other cyclists just came steaming past me at speed and didn't give a moments consideration to the horses or how they may react.

Yeah, but a lot of the worst overtakes I have ever had are horseists once they put their horse in a horse box. So if we are going for the collective responsibility thing, I may run out of patience with horse riders.